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 Animal Cruelty & Punishments

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PostSubject: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:44 pm

Ok probably a topic close to everyones heart here. What would you consider a suitable punishment for those who are convicted of animal cruelty? How do you think the punishment should be structured? Maybe you don't think it should be structured, maybe you feel one harsh punishment should suit all animal cruelty cases? What excuses for animal cruelty would be acceptable to give some leniency, if any? For example someone suffering from mental illness etc. Please discuss.

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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:51 pm

I would put them through what they had done to the animal.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:56 pm

there are no excuses for animal cruelty if they were ill then they shouldnt be keeping animals at all. they should be banned from keeping animals for life and be given them a huge fine or put in jail for a period of time.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:30 pm

tarantula_man wrote:
there are no excuses for animal cruelty if they were ill then they shouldnt be keeping animals at all. they should be banned from keeping animals for life and be given them a huge fine or put in jail for a period of time.
I agree totally
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:30 am

I'm sure that I'm in the minority opinion on this website - but animals aren't humans; we have far too many laws and punishments for everything in this world and we don't need to convict people of cruelty to animals for acts that aren't appropriate. Humans have relied on animals for their existence even prior to domesticating them. I don't think it's appropriate to pull the legs of cats for example - but killing a cat certainly shouldn't be criminal; I don't happen to like mean people or people who do mean things - but that doesn't mean that they should be criminally proscecuted for the way they treat animals..........I'll stop here!
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:47 am

i dont know if this comes under this catagory, but i think everyone should take a test to prove they understand the care and housing of the animal they are getting as a pet. something like a licence that you get for passing to prove you understand the wellbeing of your new pet.. but thats just something i feel cause i took the time to learn before getting, why cant we all.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:35 am

tarantula_man wrote:
there are no excuses for animal cruelty if they were ill then they shouldnt be keeping animals at all. they should be banned from keeping animals for life and be given them a huge fine or put in jail for a period of time.

Sorry mate I have to disagree here IF you're including mental illness. I have a lot of experience with mental illness and don't feel someone suffering could be held responsible for their actions. That's the whole point, they wouldn't know that they're getting worse and if they do see themselves getting worse it's difficult for them to distinguish where to turn and what to do next.

Don't get me wrong I hate the thought of animal cruelty and get as upset as the next person when I hear of it but it's not as simple when classing people suffering from mental distress. The main form of animal cruelty when discussing mental health problems will be neglect and it's at this point family and friends should/could step it as they wouldn't be neglecting the animals on purpose, they'd have little or no control over it.

Please feel free to comment on my reply, I hope it hasn't come across that I condone animal suffering but I believe that every situation needs to be fully investigated as every situation is different.

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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:52 am

I hate animal cruelty. There is no excuse for it!

But what are we calling animal cruelty? Is it neglect to forget to feed a pet once? or to be too ill to do out a litter tray? these are the sort of things we hear about on the news or in the papers people have had convictions secured aginst them for.

yet people who abuse animals for fun get a small fine and a ban from keeping animals, thats that, lets move on, sort of attitude.

If their are no mitigating circumstances, like mental illness, perhaps the best punnishment would be to return the level of treatment to them.

maybe they would think twice if we stub cigarettes out on them or beat them with line props. a personal favourite, leave them in a tiny cage with no food or water,and then when they are too weak to stand, dump them in a bag by a canal, and let them hope that some charitable person finds them, and cares for them.

i did see one program where a woman had three of her four rabbits taken away from her because she hadn't done them out the day that the 'inspection' occured because she had to take her daughter to hospital. they destroyed the other three rabbits because they couldnt find a home for them, even though there was nothing wrong with them. is this fair?
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tarantula_man
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:54 am

boaboytony5 wrote:
tarantula_man wrote:
there are no excuses for animal cruelty if they were ill then they shouldnt be keeping animals at all. they should be banned from keeping animals for life and be given them a huge fine or put in jail for a period of time.

Sorry mate I have to disagree here IF you're including mental illness. I have a lot of experience with mental illness and don't feel someone suffering could be held responsible for their actions. That's the whole point, they wouldn't know that they're getting worse and if they do see themselves getting worse it's difficult for them to distinguish where to turn and what to do next.

Don't get me wrong I hate the thought of animal cruelty and get as upset as the next person when I hear of it but it's not as simple when classing people suffering from mental distress. The main form of animal cruelty when discussing mental health problems will be neglect and it's at this point family and friends should/could step it as they wouldn't be neglecting the animals on purpose, they'd have little or no control over it.

Please feel free to comment on my reply, I hope it hasn't come across that I condone animal suffering but I believe that every situation needs to be fully investigated as every situation is different.

i agree that every situation is different with regards to mental illness as its brought on by different things, some people cope some people dont but some of those which would be a big percentage dont have family and friends that would step in and help as they might not know the needs that the exotics require which includes care, husbandry etc., ive been there but i didnt have animals at the time.im not saying your wrong but cruelty is cruelty and there are no excuses.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:28 am

This is a debate that have sprung up countless times, and in the end, no real conclusion could be found besides that cruelty to animals is wrong.

An example, a guy here cut the head off a few months old husky, and he died in a car accident before a proper trial could be held (Karma or assasination?), a group of kids put a firecracker up the anus of a German shepherd, and the dog had to be put down, I think they were not allowed to own any animals.
Anyway, My feelings on this, animals is a sure way to teach kids about responsibilty and accountabilty, whichever your choice, I refuse to give pets as a gift, unless the person I give the gift to has a PROVEN track record with Animals, or the person is directly under my control, eg my own kids, why I mention this?? cos this is where abuse starts, not feeding, cleaning, walking an animal are in my opinion forms of abuse.

Beating, maiming, killing or dumping animals (to mention a few) is a criminal activity, and if the SPCA can pull their finger and do more to combat abuse ( here in SA anyway) instead of worrying what I feed my reptiles, maybe peeps will exercise more caution with their animals, and take MUCH better care of them.

Animal cruelty should be tried on merit as most criminal and civil cases are in the countries. I cant see any difference between a guy that cuts off the head of a husky, and a guy that sodomises a two year old. Crime starts petty, you may kick a cat, beat a dog, steal a two cents off a table, then its R10,then you kill a dog, later its a TV, then a Car, what next murder?

All those peeps saying you cant put cruelty to animals and crimes against humans in the same category, think again, if a person gets away with killing an animal, whats to stop him from killing a human. As a person with a legal background, I dont see the difference in what and how people do things, but whats the intent.

My Shepherd digs out the Mrs plants, I get the crap, cos I dont beat my dog, I speak harshly, so whats the solution, take her for walks more often and for longer, and guess what?it works.

If I were to be put in charge of prosecuting peeps who abuses animals, there would be no shortage of volunteers at animal shelters. Such peeps are nothing less than criminals and should be treated as such, thus, they should pay, in the form of donations(not optional) and Volunteer( compulsory) at shelters.

In my opinion people that condone animal cruelty are not less guilty than the abuser. Oh, and I almost forgot the SPCA has a noble Idea, but maybe they should take advice from peeps who really give a sh!t about animals welfare. Im not saying its the whole of SPCA, some of them.

Well thats my rant, now feel free to pelt me with rocks.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 am

huskerhooters wrote:
; we have far too many laws and punishments for everything in this world !

A few years back in SA if you hear of 3 murders a month in your Town that was an outcry, that was when we had the death penalty in place.
Now to read of at least 300 murders a week in your Town is the norm, statistics proved that violent crimes increased dramatically after the death penalty was abolished.
You know the problem only becomes an issue when it happens closer to home. You can either be part of the solution, or part of the statistics. I know Id rather be part of the solution.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:42 am

huskerhooters wrote:
Humans have relied on animals for their existence even prior to domesticating them. I!

Sure, humans have, and still do! I agree fully, but when you domesticate an animal, and then abuse it, remember that an animal only wants to please you, and like a child will do things that doesnt please you, you domesticating an animal causes them to rely on you for various things, like food, shelter, care etc, and in that instance if you dont provide any of those due to something the animal did, or for your entertainment, or if you domesticate an animal and you are unable to provide proper care, you are an abuser and should suffer the consequences, unfortunately the animal suffers, cos its then relocated, and hopefully adopted, but more often it is put down.

I will say it again, animal cruelty should be treated as a crime, and should treated similar to that of a child abuser or murderer, but like I mentioned before, sentencing can be handed down differently, such as voluntary work and paying a fixed amount to a shelter etc.

Right I said enough for now Laughing

See what happens if you get me started!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:27 am

I say that if you forget that it's an animal and just look to punish the behavior of the abuser, you can take the "poor animal" equation out of the picture and see that the offender is still a criminal.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:54 am

roth wrote:
perhaps the best punnishment would be to return the level of treatment to them.

I totally agree with Roth and Bogga.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:30 pm

Two and a half years ago a junkie smashed my dog in the face with a cricket bat. This shattered my dogs face and it was touch and go if he would survive. The whole events was horrendous to go through for the dog and all of my family. The vet bill was massive! The junkie was arrested and released pending court. Because he admitted the offence in court he was given a 4 month jail sentence and didn't have to pay a penny towards the vet bills. This same person, was only just released from prison a couple of months before for breaking into an old ladies house and robbing her and breaking her leg. He did 18mths in prison for that. After he came out of prison for what he did to my dog he committed a similar offence. Only this time he killed a dog and the other dog that was attacked had to have its leg amputated. Not sure what punishment he got for that offence but the point I am trying to make is in this case prison certainly isn't enough of a deterant, or those events won't of happened. I do honestly feel, with hand on my heart, that this guy will kill someone soon. He is just rotten to the core!

I don't feel that making someone like this work voluntary in a rescue centre/sanctuary would actually make any difference. He would probably just inflict pain on those poor suffering animals that reside there already. As for paying towards the rescue centre/sanctuary well... he is on state benefits and the state can't even make fathers pay towards their own children sufficently when they are on benefits let alone paying towards a rescue centre/sanctuary! In instances like these I would like to see National Service or something similar being in force to deal with @rses like these. I honestly feel that they should be given a two year sentence being taught some self respect and certainly respect for others around them including animals. I see no difference in someone harming an animal or human with intent.

So now we are down to animal cruelty without intending to cause it. Well as you are probably aware this can be from not cleaning them out, to no food or water, or lack of exercise to no suitable shelter and so on. Usually these type of instances happen when the keeper is unwell themselves. Or maybe down to lack of knowledge or the wrong information being given by a pet shop for example. All of these things can lead to an unhealthy animal or even death, we see this sort of thing all too often here. So what should be done about it?.... Well when a keeper becomes unwell, as previously mentioned, family and friends should intervein. In most cases they do before any harm has come to the animal. But sometimes they may not have family and friends, so usually help comes too late. I had a beadie here once who's owner was mentally ill and her son got involved and rang me. I collected the beardie but sadly 6 mths later he died. Even though this poor beardie had suffered and obviously died through the neglect caused by his mentally ill owner, I fail to see how punishing the owner would acheive anything. She just needs lots of help, even though it was her nurse that had told the son in the first place. Apparently her son had told all the local pet shops not to sell any pets to his mum because she was so poorly. And yet... they still did so! So does the responsibilty lie with the shop here in this case??? So now we are here at our friendly and touchy subject of shops and the advice they give. Often I hear all too often of the wrong or poor advice being given by shops. Usually I here this after the animal they have bought becomes sick. If shops gave out the right information on the husbandry then the cases of unintended animal cruelty would be dramatically reduced. So maybe getting the shops to do an indepth animal course for each of the animals they are going to be selling should be in order! I know that shops do in most cases have to do an animal course within certain areas, but I just feel they are not indepth enough. And if they don't pass or do the course then its simple... they shouldn't be allowed to sell those pets. Education has to be the way forward to prevent animal cruelty. This is why we as parents teach our kids how to look after themselves and others around them, particulary animals. So in instances like these then voluntary work in a rescue centre/sanctuary would probably work and be benifical to both parties.

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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:08 am

I'm not trying to be obstinate here - everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.....and I have never been cruel to animals or humans (well, there are a few humans that I haven't always been pleasant to - but that is another story).

Is it cruel to slap at a mosquito and kill it? Is is cruel to kill a rat? Is it cruel to kill a prairie dog village that destroys a pasture as well as carries rabies and parasites similar to a rat? Is it cruel to shoot the pigeons that crap on my sidewalk? Or to to shoot the rabbits that eat my garden?

I would be the first in line to cut off the penis of a man who committed rape.....but the degree of the crime if he raped an animal is completely different.

But of course I don't call my dog "baby", feed him at the table, and pretend he is my 6th child... common sense is always a fine guide.

but torture - no.
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:37 pm

huskerhooters wrote:
I'm not trying to be obstinate here - everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.....and I have never been cruel to animals or humans (well, there are a few humans that I haven't always been pleasant to - but that is another story).

Is it cruel to slap at a mosquito and kill it? Is is cruel to kill a rat? Is it cruel to kill a prairie dog village that destroys a pasture as well as carries rabies and parasites similar to a rat? Is it cruel to shoot the pigeons that crap on my sidewalk? Or to to shoot the rabbits that eat my garden?

I would be the first in line to cut off the penis of a man who committed rape.....but the degree of the crime if he raped an animal is completely different.

But of course I don't call my dog "baby", feed him at the table, and pretend he is my 6th child... common sense is always a fine guide.

but torture - no.

Your right everyone is entitled to their veiw point, thats what the debates are all about.

Is it cruel to slap at a mosquito and kill it?
I don't think so.
Is is cruel to kill a rat?
If it's done humanely then no.
Is it cruel to kill a prairie dog village that destroys a pasture as well as carries rabies and parasites similar to a rat?
If it's done humanely then no but I wouldn't kill it just because it destroyed a pasture, the rabies would be my concern.
Is it cruel to shoot the pigeons that crap on my sidewalk?
I hate any form of hunting!
Or to to shoot the rabbits that eat my garden?
Again, I hate any form of hunting!

I would be the first in line to cut off the penis of a man who committed rape.....but the degree of the crime if he raped an animal is completely different.
Careful now I seen those type of films lol! You could be getting yourself a name here. Razz Seriously though, your right, but it shouldn't be that way.

But of course I don't call my dog "baby", feed him at the table, and pretend he is my 6th child... common sense is always a fine guide.
Guess I've no common sense then. lol!

but torture - no.[/
Agreed

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Last edited by Reptile Rescue Den on Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Animal Cruelty & Punishments   Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:45 am

And that's a tough one. I rescue animals all the time. From kittens to crocodiles. I also kill mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels and other rodents.

In fact, what I know about the wild animal population and the probability of over populating and the need for culling, I have no problem hunting deer, fox duck and bear. I've eaten the meat or given it to my rescues. (Mostly eaten it, but some...not so much).

Where do I draw the line. I don't know. But to coin a phrase of a famous American Judge, "I may not know how to explain it, but I know it when I see it."

Sorry, that's the best I got.
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